Chickens Legal In Lakewood...

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J Hrlec
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Re: Chickens Legal In Lakewood...

Postby J Hrlec » Fri Nov 18, 2011 5:02 pm

Peter Grossetti wrote:Mr. Markling - I respectfully stand by my statement: [b]"to insinuate that Council has been out of the loop with regard to HIL is really not fair."


Council is a group as a whole, based on what I am reading council was pretty much out of the loop. A few coucil people may have had related conversations outside of a formal council meeting. It would be unfair to assume COUNCIL was in the loop because of that.


Charlie Page
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Re: Chickens Legal In Lakewood...

Postby Charlie Page » Fri Nov 18, 2011 5:06 pm

Congrats to Monique Smith for stepping up and airing her concerns! :)

I could be wrong, but it appears what is being done is the granting of exemptions by the Mayor (Public Safety Director) per section 505.18 (d). Presumably, the three families have submitted their applications for exemption, the Mayor has evaluated each application per 505.18 (d) 1, 3, 4 & 5 and has approved.

In theory, an unlimited number of exemptions can be granted by the Mayor. This would circumvent Council’s authority as there would be no need for a Chicken Ordinance. However, I would hope the Mayor would not grant an exemption to just anybody and limit the number of exemptions granted. It sounds like a great idea but homes in Lakewood are just too close together to allow chickens, IMO.

If Council members are worried their power is being usurped, they can modify the ordinance to their liking.

Matthew John Markling wrote:In fact, Councilwoman Smith has made it abundantly clear to me that – regardless of whether we both agree on issues facing our city and public schools – she can never endorse or support me based solely upon the fact that I am not a Democrat.

This is the kind of thinking that is ruining our country.


I was going to sue her for defamation of character but then I realized I had no character – Charles Barkley
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marklingm
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Re: Chickens Legal In Lakewood...

Postby marklingm » Fri Nov 18, 2011 5:19 pm

Charlie Page wrote:
Matthew John Markling wrote:In fact, Councilwoman Smith has made it abundantly clear to me that – regardless of whether we both agree on issues facing our city and public schools – she can never endorse or support me based solely upon the fact that I am not a Democrat.


This is the kind of thinking that is ruining our country.


Charlie,

I agree. And ...

Monique Smith wrote:The mayor and some members of his administration are showing increasingly worrisome signs that they have no regard for council or some members of the public in Lakewood who may have opinions that differ from theirs.


... these are the kinds of facts that are ruining our city.

Matt


Peter Grossetti
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Re: Chickens Legal In Lakewood...

Postby Peter Grossetti » Fri Nov 18, 2011 5:21 pm

Mr. Brown - if your ancestors had rats, it is because they did not maintain a clean, safe, healthy environment for their chickens.

Hen raisers can (and will) do several things to deter rats: 1.) Keep the area clean. Cleanliness and good hygiene keeps poultry healthy and eliminates the possibility of unpleasant smells. 2.) Don't leave food lying around and store it properly. 3.) Collect eggs daily as soon after laying as possible.

Mice and rats are already here in Lakewood because people are here, and chicken feed is no more attractive than cat food left on a porch!


"So, let's make the most of this beautiful day.
Since we're together we might as well say:
Would you be mine? Could you be mine?
Won't you be my neighbor?"

~ Fred (Mr. Rogers) Rogers
J Hrlec
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Re: Chickens Legal In Lakewood...

Postby J Hrlec » Fri Nov 18, 2011 5:23 pm

Peter Grossetti wrote:Mr. Brown - if your ancestors had rats, it is because they did not maintain a clean, safe, healthy environment for their chickens.

Hen raisers can (and will) do several things to deter rats: 1.) Keep the area clean. Cleanliness and good hygiene keeps poultry healthy and eliminates the possibility of unpleasant smells. 2.) Don't leave food lying around and store it properly. 3.) Collect eggs daily as soon after laying as possible.

Mice and rats are already here in Lakewood because people are here, and chicken feed is no more attractive than cat food left on a porch!


I guess that what a "pilot" is for... if the pilot participants cannot present themselves with those qualities mentioned above and rats are present, I would assume it is a failure.


Cherise Sims
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Re: Chickens Legal In Lakewood...

Postby Cherise Sims » Fri Nov 18, 2011 5:28 pm

Will Brown wrote:Many of my ancestors were dairy farmers and kept chickens. I recall that rats were always a concern around the coops and cribs. In fact, I learned to shoot by plinking rats for some of them. Traps didn't seem to be effective and there was some reason they didn't like to use poison. In any event, I have since always associated a large rat population with raising chickens. I know that even having a bird feeder can attract rats, as the birds don't like some of the seeds and throw them on the ground.

So my question is what is being done to insure that we don't become over ratted when we allow people to do their fowl thing?


Rats are also attracted to garbage cans, gardens, fruit trees, milk. They already exist in every city, chickens will not make them worse if you follow some very simple guidelines...put away the food at night, metal garbage containers have worked really well for many,many chicken owners. There are also pressure sensitive chicken feeders out there. Have a secure coop. Most large scale chicken farms are impossible to secure in a way that prevents rodents. I have found very little to no evidence that urban chickens increase prediators of any kind. We'd need to also ban small dogs, kittens, all of the above rat attractors and human beings of any kind if you really want to rid the city of rats. It's true.


Peter Grossetti
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Re: Chickens Legal In Lakewood...

Postby Peter Grossetti » Fri Nov 18, 2011 5:45 pm

It's really sad that Councilwoman Smith has chosen the Hens in Lakewood effort as her platform to vent her dislike for and distrust of Mayor Summers. Her issue is "political" in nature and really has nothing to do with hens. Re-read her first two sentences: "The problem with the news of the backyard hen pilot program is that the mayor and his administration didn't involve city council in a single word of the discussions or the planning that they have apparently been having for quite a while about it. In fact, it's only because of the news that has been reported in the Observer that I even know about this pilot, and I'm a member of Lakewood city council."


"So, let's make the most of this beautiful day.
Since we're together we might as well say:
Would you be mine? Could you be mine?
Won't you be my neighbor?"

~ Fred (Mr. Rogers) Rogers
Cherise Sims
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Re: Chickens Legal In Lakewood...

Postby Cherise Sims » Fri Nov 18, 2011 6:13 pm

Peter Grossetti wrote:It's really sad that Councilwoman Smith has chosen the Hens in Lakewood effort as her platform to vent her dislike for and distrust of Mayor Summers. Her issue is "political" in nature and really has nothing to do with hens. Re-read her first two sentences: "The problem with the news of the backyard hen pilot program is that the mayor and his administration didn't involve city council in a single word of the discussions or the planning that they have apparently been having for quite a while about it. In fact, it's only because of the news that has been reported in the Observer that I even know about this pilot, and I'm a member of Lakewood city council."


Agreed, this issue has been put before council before. Personal perception is getting in the way of facts.


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Jim O'Bryan
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Re: Chickens Legal In Lakewood...

Postby Jim O'Bryan » Fri Nov 18, 2011 6:18 pm

Dear At-Large Councilwoman Smith,

First, let me say, thank you for the kind words. This project was built
by civic leaders who unfortunately seem to have run into the same bumps
in the road as you do.

I always think back to our first serious discussion and what dreams and
ideas you had for Lakewood. I am sorry your experience on council has
not been all you had hoped in those days. You are truly an intelligent
person and add much to this city. What you are saying is not any different from
what many others are saying.

What I am gathering from your comments is that we have had more
conversation about chickens, on the Deck, than the Mayor allocated to
City Council. Maybe this is another reason City Council and the Community
should think about a city manager?

I am unaware of any council member who knew anything about Mike's pilot
program.

Me, personally, knowing this crew, I would say do not worry.

I am sure that this is just another faux effort to make it look like the community had input.
I am sure the program that has been set up to fail ...
Another charade to appease those who care about "food security."

I do hope you continue to stop by the Deck and post. I believe that everyone
connected with this project would agree that transparency and accountability
are beautiful things.

But, School Board President, Matt Markling is probably right:
Matthew John Markling wrote:While Councilwoman Smith has just placed
herself directly in the crosshairs of "The Machine" and the "Lakewood
Shunning of Smith" has reportedly already begun, bullies never like
being exposed as such to the public - which is why political bullies
detest true transparency and accountability.


.


Jim O'Bryan
Lakewood Resident

"The very act of observing disturbs the system."
Werner Heisenberg

"If anything I've said seems useful to you, I'm glad.
If not, don't worry. Just forget about it."
His Holiness The Dalai Lama
Steve Hoffert
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Re: Chickens Legal In Lakewood...

Postby Steve Hoffert » Fri Nov 18, 2011 6:32 pm

The council had the chance to consider this in the past. Instead of community discussion, education on the subject and true democratic debate; The issue was snatched up into a committee with the express intent of killing the issue. Comments made in that meeting included: What can I do to kill this issue so it never comes up in Lakewood again and My grandparents didn't come over to this country to live next to people with chickens.

I am in no way involved in this issue but twelve chickens are going to make no difference in this city when compared to mountains of dog crap, feral cats and rats that I see leisurely making their way down riverside about once a week when I go to work.


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Jim O'Bryan
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Re: Chickens Legal In Lakewood...

Postby Jim O'Bryan » Fri Nov 18, 2011 7:01 pm

Steve, Peter, Cherise

I know this is a subject both councilwomen are very against, for two very different but
legitimate reason to them and others. Monique lives on a street that has the homes very
close to each other, and with very shallow backyards.

With that said, I see no reason to complain just because this was the final straw in what was
a really long period of frustration with the way things have gone at City Hall. While chickens
and if we can have them or not is very important to many, how this city actually functions or
does not function should be important to all of us.

As Peter points out, she jumps from chickens to the 2nd real issue. We should all listen, and
see what she comes back with after a day or two.

.


Jim O'Bryan
Lakewood Resident

"The very act of observing disturbs the system."
Werner Heisenberg

"If anything I've said seems useful to you, I'm glad.
If not, don't worry. Just forget about it."
His Holiness The Dalai Lama
Melissa Page
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Location: Robinwood Avenue

Re: Chickens Legal In Lakewood...

Postby Melissa Page » Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:14 pm

I believe Monique when she says she has seen a pattern that has brought her to the point of posting here under the current topic that just so happens to be Hens In Lakewood. Sorry for Hens In Lakewood, but a big thanks and offer of encouragement from me to Monique.

I am of the mindset that it is a beautiful but underutilized American trait to be able to think for yourself and have the confidence to stand up for what you think is right despite the resistance. And I appreciate and admire the use of parliamentary law for its ability to ensure effective leadership.If there is a pattern of our City Hall leaders not practicing parliamentary law procedures I hope we see them get back on the right track soon. Monique, as your constituent, let me know if there is anything I can do to help.

I have had similar frustrations in nonprofit organizations. I am well versed in Robert’s Rules of Order 10th edition by now with all the many board positions I have served. I have also felt compelled to take certain chances and make an example out of the current topic to attempt to improve something or stop an unfair practice. Think of the term “teachable moment”. It’s also a good opportunity to create awareness because you have something for the audience to relate it to. Think “Oh... I get it now”. or “Oh…I see what your saying”. Though nothing is sadder than when nobody else is paying attention or listening. Monique knew she would be heard here on the Deck. Oh, how I love the Deck.

If anyone wants to start another thread I would be happy to chime in on a separate topic that discusses the general topic of local leaders not following parliamentary law and their own governing laws. I believe there are different reasons why this happens, some may in fact, be intentional. But I believe some are just due to negligence or lack of understanding of why the procedures are important. I see part of the solution would be to require our incoming leaders to learn general parliamentary law and the self-governing rules expected of them before taking on their position.

-Mel


Peter Grossetti
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Re: Chickens Legal In Lakewood...

Postby Peter Grossetti » Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:41 pm

Bottom line: three families who only want to know the source of part of their food supply is getting royally screwed because the Powers that Be in City Hall can't play well together.


"So, let's make the most of this beautiful day.
Since we're together we might as well say:
Would you be mine? Could you be mine?
Won't you be my neighbor?"

~ Fred (Mr. Rogers) Rogers
Cherise Sims
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Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2011 11:31 pm

Re: Chickens Legal In Lakewood...

Postby Cherise Sims » Sat Nov 19, 2011 12:50 am

Steve Hoffert wrote:The council had the chance to consider this in the past. Instead of community discussion, education on the subject and true democratic debate; The issue was snatched up into a committee with the express intent of killing the issue. Comments made in that meeting included: What can I do to kill this issue so it never comes up in Lakewood again and My grandparents didn't come over to this country to live next to people with chickens.


The purpose of the exemption was not to sneak chickens in through the back door and circumvent council, but to present opportunity to work with council for the coming year in reviewing and possibly changing the ordinance. Look what was said in this article http://lakewood-oh.patch.com/articles/c ... -exemption this would be funny if it weren’t so embarrassing. We already reached out to council, we provided opportunity to meet with us, discuss the issue, and even actually encounter real urban chickens and keepers. Dave Anderson and Tom Bullock are the only two who took advantage of that opportunity. Now instead of having a knowledge based conversation about this topic we get completely inaccurate fear mongering. For example, there are easily located research articles proving that having chickens do not lower property values in fact Homes in cities (demographically similar to Lakewood, Oh) that allow backyard chickens have an average sales price that is higher compared to homes here, where chickens are currently not allowed. Clearly, backyard chickens do not lower property values. (Source: http://realestate.aol.com). The Mayor didn’t do anything wrong here, unless actually listening to your constituents, following the law as it is written, and basing his decision on well researched facts is a crime of some sort. To close, I am pretty sure If I cared to look I would find that living next door to McDonalds does lower property values. Just my perception, which apparently equals fact according to the article I listed above. . #bigsigh


Missy Limkemann
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Re: Chickens Legal In Lakewood...

Postby Missy Limkemann » Sat Nov 19, 2011 7:56 am

And once again City Council of Lakewood has disgusted me ......


Time is precious, waste is wisely

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