Should The City if Lakewood Encourage Subsidize Affordable Housing?

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Bill Call
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Should The City if Lakewood Encourage Subsidize Affordable Housing?

Postby Bill Call » Sun Mar 26, 2023 9:36 am

One proposal is to pave over greenspace.

Didn't the City just add an impervious surface fee because paving greenspace is bad,?

Another proposal is to convert single family homes into two family homes. Is this a good idea?

Are Lakewood's affordable housing plans development plans or ideological virtue signaling?


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Jim O'Bryan
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Re: Should The City if Lakewood Encourage Subsidize Affordable Housing?

Postby Jim O'Bryan » Sun Mar 26, 2023 9:52 am

Bill Call wrote:One proposal is to pave over greenspace.

Didn't the City just add an impervious surface fee because paving greenspace is bad,?

Another proposal is to convert single family homes into two family homes. Is this a good idea?

Are Lakewood's affordable housing plans development plans or ideological virtue signaling?



Bill

The impervious surface fee was put in to shift the cost from the home owners to the businesses for the many upgrades to our sewage treatment. It should be noted the upgrade is going well, and is cost less than was first thought. EPA seems at peace with the progress Lakewood is making.

NO, there has always been an issue going back to the beginning of this project. From both sides. People that want Lakewood to be something other than organic and natural, something forced, usually a square peg in a round hole. Sometimes even from the same person, "We need Lakewood to be more like Tremont." and "My friends and I cannot afford to buy a house in Lakewood, we need cheaper housing."

When you look at just Lakewood, and act like nothing else exists in this world, Lakewood would need to cater to all, not just those that are here and have already invested heavily in this community. I am going to go out on a limb and say, I believe the real key to Lakewood's success still is here. You graduate, get an cheap apartment, go to work. Soon you meet friends and get a half a house or a two bedroom. While drinking at one of the local bars, you meet the love of your life, and move into a condo, or half a house. Save then apply for the FREEE $7,000 for first time home buyers, and buy a house. At some p[oint you acquire children, they go to school and it all starts over again.

Lakewood's true industry is homes, schools, library. A massive investment in education and safety.

People have got to stop reading something than trying how to figure out how to make it work.

Organic is both sustainable, and healthy.

.


Jim O'Bryan
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Bill Call
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Re: Should The City if Lakewood Encourage Subsidize Affordable Housing?

Postby Bill Call » Sun Mar 26, 2023 1:12 pm

Jim O'Bryan wrote:
Organic is both sustainable, and healthy.

.


Another way of saying let the markets decide.

Who are the lucky 20 people who get the "affordable " housing?


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Re: Should The City if Lakewood Encourage Subsidize Affordable Housing?

Postby Jim O'Bryan » Sun Mar 26, 2023 10:28 pm

Bill Call wrote:
Jim O'Bryan wrote:
Organic is both sustainable, and healthy.

.


Another way of saying let the markets decide.

Who are the lucky 20 people who get the "affordable " housing?


I often wonder if it was all a plan to destroy Lakewood.

Run off our largest employers, liquidate $283 million in city owned assets for $1, and then replace doctor salaries, with "affordable housing" when Lakewood is USDA Prime?!

The only real gauge we have as property owners to how a city is performing is by the values. If they stay the same the city is doing OK, If they go up in value, then it is a desirable place, because of safety, schools, housing, location, the city is doing well. If they go down it is failing.

Do these people understand there is affordable housing all over Lakewood, and even more within a ten minute walk.

In a city as large as Cleveland, or as large as it once was. It owes everyone there, safe, clean housing on a variety of massive levels.

Does Ferrari need to make an affordable mini-van with 4 wheel drive? No, it is not their brand, style, and would actually diminish the brand. They wisely let others cater to that market and stick to what they are good at.

While Cleveland builds luxury in their DowntowN area, and the place is filing up, we have dedicated our DowntowN area to low coast and government subsidize living. Westerly, Barton Center, etc. Why again does this area need more? There are massive apartment complexes on Hird, and what was Hidden Village, hundreds of units. There is the Lake House and 3 Gold Coast buildings mostly vouchers. Literately thousands of units.

It is like they do not live in Lakewood. In fact most live north of the William Sonoma Line and travel it east and west, never south, never into real Lakewood.

I hope the residents of Lakewood realize, that just because FitzGerald, Summers, Madigan, Bullock, Litten, O'Leary sold the most valuable piece of property in Lakewood for $1. Doesn't mean it is only worth $1. You see we were played like Rubes, we really should let it happen again, especially by the same group of Carnies.

.

FWIW


Jim O'Bryan
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"The very act of observing disturbs the system."
Werner Heisenberg

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If not, don't worry. Just forget about it."
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Dan Alaimo
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Re: Should The City if Lakewood Encourage Subsidize Affordable Housing?

Postby Dan Alaimo » Mon Mar 27, 2023 12:17 pm

Lakewood needs to be at peace with the idea of being Lakewood, and not someplace else. The hospital issue was an example of people trying to force Lakewood to be something it wasn't. What did it get Lakewood? A center-city hole in the ground.

How's this for a chamber of commerce slogan? Be the best Lakewood you can be..


“Never let a good crisis go to waste." - Winston Churchill (Quote later appropriated by Rahm Emanuel)
Richard Baker
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Re: Should The City if Lakewood Encourage Subsidize Affordable Housing?

Postby Richard Baker » Mon Mar 27, 2023 12:45 pm

Just a side note, the $84 million upgrade is the diversion pipe to reduce storm and raw sewage from the systems outflows into Lake Erie. The outflows will not be eliminated, they will remain to protect the system from hydraulic pressure in the event its overwhelmed by rainstorm. Until the million of gallon tanks, and the upgrade are made at the waste treatment plant, the higher volume of untreated sewage by the upgraded diversion pipe will to being dumped directly into the river. The existing treatment plant will be overwhelmed more often and more raw sewage will be dumped into Rocky River that will flow out into Lake Erie. The priorities are totally asinine, they should do the $246 million dollar upgrade at the treatment plant and storage tanks first thus allowing the water to be stored and treated. Until then, the wider the dilution of raw sewage waste by existing outflows directly into the lake the better. Don't fool yourself, this will not stop raw sewage released in fifty or hundred year storms. If Lake Erie didn't replace it's water every 2.6 years, it would have become a cesspool. The first time the Rocky River residents and CYC see sewage debris flowing in the rivers, lawsuits will be as common as midges.


Bill Call
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Re: Should The City if Lakewood Encourage Subsidize Affordable Housing?

Postby Bill Call » Mon Mar 27, 2023 3:36 pm

Mark Kindt wrote:What, may I ask, is "ideological virtue signaling"?


Here is one definition of virtue signaling:

: the act or practice of conspicuously displaying one's awareness of and attentiveness to political issues, matters of social and racial justice, etc., especially instead of taking effective action

My accent would be on "especially instead of taking effective action".

One example would be John Kerry's crusade to save the world from global warming. He flies around the world in private jets to attend lavish parties attended by others who flew there on private jets to advertise their belief that everyone else needs to become poorer or the world will come to an end. Then they hop on their private jets so they can cruise the Mediterranean Sea on some billionaires mega yacht. They don't accomplish anything but they have a good time and feel good about how they feel.

I describe the City's fetish about "affordable housing" as virtue signaling because their policies are at best inconsequential and at worst harmful. They are inconsequential because adding 40 "affordable" units makes no difference in a City of 53,000. Who are those lucky 40 people? They are harmful because the policy complicates the developers job and increases housing costs for everyone else.

The City is going to lose $2 million per year in income tax revenue with the coming lose of Roundstone and Thinsolutions. We need people who pay taxes and can afford to go out to eat to help support our bar based economy. We also have to make up the $2 million dollar loss when Lakewood Hospital was moved to Lorain County.

Here is another example of virtue signaling: A few years back Cuyahoga County was on a kick to encourage their students to take public transportation to, you know, save the environment. Lots of public statements, a big campaign and a lot of hoopla. I'm sure what they said made them feel real good about how they feel.

What did they do? They built a new campus on the boarders of Lorain County in the middle of an industrial park with no access to public transportation. Right near the newly built Hospital.

Virtue signaling? What do they say?

Urban sprawl is bad!
People need access to health care!
Support the inner core!
Dense development will save the environment?

What do they do?

Open up 100,000 acres of farmland in Lorain County to new development populated by people who use to live in Cuyahoga County.
Close a full service Hospital that provided tens of millions in charity care.
Move jobs and economic activity to Lorain County.
Encourage even more sprawl.

Imagine if they spent money on properly maintaining Lakewood Hospital, building a full service family health center next door with a Cuyahoga County Community College building right across the street. People could walk to school, walk to the doctor, live near all of it.

No, better to move it all to Lorain County and talk about how much we care about the City, the urban core, the environment and how much we care about how much we care. You know, virtue signaling.


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Jim O'Bryan
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Re: Should The City if Lakewood Encourage Subsidize Affordable Housing?

Postby Jim O'Bryan » Tue Mar 28, 2023 7:19 am

Bill

I have to say that I do agree with your post and virtue signaling, though your examples have been beat to death.

I would add to that, another triger is what is perceived as "cool," though most wouldn't know cool if it bit them in the ass.Bsides "cool" is vapor, mercury, the second anything is branded as cool it is not.

As for Lorain County that is where the Cleveland Foundation is spending $$$$$, have doubts, drive down empty their mainstreet, and see what appears as a movie set. bright clean buildings, empty. Just like downtown Cleveland. They even have mini Playhouse Square arches, that welcome you. Conveniently they are next to one of the few businesses there. A gorgeous old steel office building, then bank, now a "WE BUY GOLD" and "BAIL BONDSMAN" office.

.


Jim O'Bryan
Lakewood Resident

"The very act of observing disturbs the system."
Werner Heisenberg

"If anything I've said seems useful to you, I'm glad.
If not, don't worry. Just forget about it."
His Holiness The Dalai Lama
Mark Kindt
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Re: Should The City if Lakewood Encourage Subsidize Affordable Housing?

Postby Mark Kindt » Tue Mar 28, 2023 9:24 am

Are we really talking about anything meaningful here that relates to Lakewood?

---"Ideological Virtue Signaling"---terminology just as meaningless as "woke"--- or "MAGA".

On the topic of "affordability":

Affordability can only be measured by the value and cost attributed by the purchaser.

When I looked at this topic at length during the Carnegie planning, I only saw non-market rate taxpayer-subsidized housing that no one on an average Lakewood income could ever afford.

Is anything really different now? All I see is old wine in new bottles.

The city still proposes to construct non-market rate tax-payer subsidized housing of some sort (on its sacrificed public hospital site) while pretending that this is "market rate housing" with some units accessible by an "affordability" index/calculus.

The word "affordability" in the context of Lakewood politics is just more of the endless public relations fluff that has been so damaging to our community for the past decade.

In 2012, the Lakewood civic leaders decided to "wreck" the city, then "wrecked" the city, and now everyone is scratching their heads on how to "un-wreck" the wreckage.


Bill Call
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Re: Should The City if Lakewood Encourage Subsidize Affordable Housing?

Postby Bill Call » Tue Mar 28, 2023 3:26 pm

Mark Kindt wrote:Are we really talking about anything meaningful here that relates to Lakewood?.


I got lost in the weeds. :D

The post was supposed to be about proposed changes to Lakewood's zoning laws. The proposal would allow construction of tiny homes in back yards and the conversion of garages into apartments.


Dan Alaimo
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Re: Should The City if Lakewood Encourage Subsidize Affordable Housing?

Postby Dan Alaimo » Tue Mar 28, 2023 4:17 pm

Here'a a test case for the new plan. Would it have kept us from moving to a ranch house in Westlake? Probably not.
Would it have encouraged us to start operating an Air BnB? Maybe.

Going back to what Lakewood is. Some help for remodeling typical Lakewood houses for single-floor living would make a difference.
As to affordability in a hot inner-ring suburb, I don't know that it can be created. Those people will have to go someplace else and make that the next hot suburb. Affordable housing sounds like a nice talking point, but I don't think it is reality for the city Lakewood is becoming.

It seems like wishing for the town that Lakewood was, rather than what it is, or is becoming. For better or worse, that is the direction of affluence. And yes, it's easier to see from a distance.


“Never let a good crisis go to waste." - Winston Churchill (Quote later appropriated by Rahm Emanuel)
Amy Martin
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Re: Should The City if Lakewood Encourage Subsidize Affordable Housing?

Postby Amy Martin » Wed Mar 29, 2023 5:21 am

The post was supposed to be about proposed changes to Lakewood's zoning laws.


This is typical of the Deck. Subject is started, turns into the effen Hospital debacle within 2 replies. This is why young people don't read or post on this site. They are SICK of hearing about the Hospital. It was a bad deal, it is done. They have progressive ideas which are all blown off by the regulars of this forum. To them, this is just a place where old boomers blow off steam about how things were and how change is bad. Talk to the young folks in your neighborhood to get the real pulse of Lakewood. Read the Deck if you want to dwell in what used to be.


Mark Kindt
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Re: Should The City if Lakewood Encourage Subsidize Affordable Housing?

Postby Mark Kindt » Wed Mar 29, 2023 11:11 am

Like many in Lakewood ten years ago (then at the age 60), I never expected to see a vast "hole-in-the-ground" in the center of our city at the age of 70.

I intend to continue to write here about poor public policy outcomes in our city as I see them and that will continue to include what I personally witnessed in the past decade.

If I thought there was a better local forum, I would write there too.

As always, I stand ready to engage in dialogue with anyone regardless of age or ideas.

I hope to witness future positive developments in Lakewood.


Dan Alaimo
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Re: Should The City if Lakewood Encourage Subsidize Affordable Housing?

Postby Dan Alaimo » Wed Mar 29, 2023 4:04 pm

Amy Martin wrote:
They have progressive ideas which are all blown off by the regulars of this forum.


I raise a question for anyone. Is subsidizing "affordable housing" really progressive? Seems to me it is regressive. Let's go back in time....


“Never let a good crisis go to waste." - Winston Churchill (Quote later appropriated by Rahm Emanuel)

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